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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
really looking for some input from out resident engineer on this one....dgc333.

if you've paid any attention to my posts, i have a 2.3 ecoboost powered race car having overheating issues on a sticky racetrack that is wide open almost all the way around the track. i have the biggest triple pass racing radiator i can fit with a mark viii fan on it. after about 4 laps wide open the temp is climbing fast and by lap 6 it's close to 240 and losing ground to the fully modified SOHC guys. by lap 8 i have to back off the throttle to about 1/3 on the straights to keep it from getting any hotter and going into limp mode. if we get a caution flag, the temp drops to 180 within 1 lap at reduced speed. on nights when the track is slick and i have to "pedal" the car, no overheating issues at all so i believe it is boost related overheating.

since it's race car, i can get creative so i mounted a smaller double pass radiator over the rear end and plumbed the hot water bypass through it. i have shop tested it and it is getting hot water to the rear radiator. with the rear fan running, the engine idles at 160 and doesn't get warm enough for the front fan to kick on. the system now has an additional gallon of coolant and an extra radiator/fan. am i on to something? maybe buy me a few more "fast" laps before the engine gets hot and the ECM starts pulling timing/limiting boost and whatever else it does to prevent damage? those are 3/4" lines. sorry about the huge pictures. i guess i don't know how to post them as thumbnails.
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I'm no engineer, but Livernois sells a cooler thermostat for our cars that might help.

 

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Discussion Starter #3
a thermostat has no effect on the cooling capacity. i don't even have one. the triple pass radiator doubles as a restrictor to keep water in the radiator long enough to allow it to cool. thanks.
 

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a thermostat has no effect on the cooling capacity. i don't even have one. the triple pass radiator doubles as a restrictor to keep water in the radiator long enough to allow it to cool. thanks.
I've looked around for "triple pass" radiator and it seems like there is not one that is "plug and play" for the Eco, like there is for the GT...how badly did you have to mod the one in the front, and which one did you end up using.

Also, you may want to officially 'tag' @dgc333 to make sure he sees it.

Next, based on that whole previous thread that you posted on CHT and 'Oil Temp', I decided to give my Eco the 'once over' a couple weeks ago. Now you have to understand, its been sizzling hot down here. Just plain ridiculous. By 8am, its already plenty uncomfortable to be outside for too long. So I rolled her out onto the highway and headed for empty stretches in the everglades. I spent a long time in and out of WOT, going back and forth between 60 to100. And towards the end, I could totally see what you are talking about. I saw cylinder temps as high as 240-242, and I saw that oil gauge creep ever so slightly towards yellow. I'd let off the throttle some, and the oil temp gauge would tick back down.

Lastly, I have a question for you as I am in the midst of planning a radiator flush (in part due to your thread and my experiment). Do you see any issue with running 40% antifreeze instead of 50%? I am in NO danger of freezing conditions in Miami, and on the contrary, I could use the extra cooling of water it seems like. However, I am a little concerned if 40% is enough corrosion inhibition so I don't premature shorten my engine life. Thank you. Keep up the great work. The build looks awesome.
 

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I understand that the rad is supposed to slow the coolant down but in the old days you always put a “blanking plate” in place of the thermostat, basically a disk of metal with a hole in it to mimick the pass through area of a thermostat. Perhaps you’re still passing coolant too quickly and could use one of these, if they haven’t gone the way of the dodo.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
gatornek, this is my fox body race car. i can use any universal radiator i want as long as there is physical room and can fab mounts. if you search the introduction thread, i have pictures there under "dirt track ecoboost". i don't see any problem using a 40/60 mix or even less if you use an additive. water wetter is one that i've used. it is supposed to break the surface tension in water to help it "stick" to the engine better thus transferring heat more efficiently. a lot of guys use distilled water as well. a cap full of Downy in the cooling system is supposed to do the same thing but i don't know....that's an old racer's trick.

johnny, my radiator manufacturer included a note in the box to NOT run a restrictor of any kind as the water will have to circulate through the radiator 3 times before reentering the engine and that would provide the restriction needed to slow the flow. i think i just do not have the cooling capacity needed to keep it cool running up to full boost 50 times in under 7 minutes if there are no caution flags in a 25 lap race. the OEM s550 radiator is definitely not up to the task as gatornek pointed out.

edit: just an FYI....i have used a restrictor and a thermostat with my old single pass radiator. it comes up to temp quicker with the thermostat but other than that no difference.
 

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A triple pass radiator is like a long skinny single pass radiator. It will create a lot more pressure drop between the inlet and outlet than an equal volume single pass radiator. Increased pressure drop will slow the velocity of the coolant through the engine causing your over heating issues. The radiator manufactures recommendation for no restrictor was sound advice. Also, a high volume water pump is generally recommended when using two or three pass radiators. But i highly doubt you can call anyone and get one.

Here's a few things you can try;

1. Add water wetter like Redline's to the radiator (if you haven't already). This will reduce the surface tension of the coolant to help prevent the tiny layer of air bubbles that tend to form along the surfaces of the block and radiator. The air bubbles act as an insulator.
2. The water pump is driven by the smooth back side of the belt. Anything you can do prevent slippage will help the water pump over come the pressure drop in the radiator. New belt, skuff the surface of the pulley, belt dressing, auxillary spring for the tensioner, etc.
3. Make a junk yard run and see if you can find a smaller pulley you can adapt to the water pump. Not sure how small you can go before the pump will cavitate so keep it around a 1/2" smaller in diameter. If you can find several to try that would be good. Just remember you will likely need a shorter belt.
4. Go back to a large capacity single pass radiator. Here is where you may need to think about a restrictor.

Good Luck sorting this out.



Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
oh man, conflicting theories.... my race guru friend says i need a larger WP pulley. he says i'm cavitating now. i disagree with him but i did take his advice and tried a different WP with a 1/4" hole drilled in each fin....no difference. with the gear i have in it, i'm probably turning 6000-6200 max entering the corners. i'm back to the OEM pump now. same thing with the single pass radiator and restrictor...overheating in 6-7 wide open laps with either WP. all of my R&D is telling me that i simply do not have enough cooling capacity with ANY single radiator on a heavy track unless i used one off a peterbilt or something which is physically impossible.

as mentioned, when the track is dry slick, i have no cooling issues whatsoever. a tacky track is like towing a heavy trailer up a hill into the wind, verses a slick track which is like running downhill, no trailer with a tailwind. we can get either kind of track on any given race night depending on the weather and how much water the track crew puts down and the timing of when the water is put down. when the track is slick, i can barely tickle the throttle. when it's tacky, i can hold it wide open all the way around.....just lift momentarily to enter the corner, then back down hard with the throttle.
 

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Have you considered methanol?
Methanol injection is going to reduce your charge temps only, unless you think a cooler charge temp, makes for a cooler combustion event, and ultimately, cooler cylinder head temps. I don't think methanol is going to make that kind of a difference in cylinder head temps, but I could be wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
i can report back that the auxiliary radiator is working. we didn't get a tacky, wide open race track last weekend but it never got over 200-205 on a fast track....tacky on one end and slick on the other. i've never seen temps that low on ANY type of race track so i think i am onto something. now it's getting tuned and we'll see what happens. hopefully, i'll get the tuner and my base tune by this weekend and data log during the race...

edit: i know everyone has their favorite tuner. i am using Ryan Martin at Purple Drank Tuning in Virginia. he was recommended by Brian Axup at Esslinger Engineering.
 

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The fact that your auxiliary radiator took a chunk out of it is a great indicator. Myself, I'd be concerned about your triple-pass cooler, and here's why; as @dgc333 pointed out, a triple-pass is really only a long,skinny radiator. Unless the water is flowing extremely fast through it, the water will have cooled to near ambient at some point down that long tube. After that, all the surface area in the world isn't doing a bit of good. Back in the day, we would add a third row core to the existing double-core radiators. Now, you'd think that would increase its ability to reject heat by an additional 50%, but, since the first two cores were already heating the air, the third core hardly did a thing. If anything, it just restricted the airflow.
At some point, the only way to increase cooling is to have more frontal area, running a single pass radiator, since the objective is to get rid of as much heat as possible, rather than trying to get as cold of water as possible. 'Sounds counter-intuitive, I know...
Heat exchanger efficiency (your radiator) is measured by how much heat it rejects with the lowest temp drop from inlet to outlet. In other words, if the water coming out of the radiator is close to the surrounding air temp, it's not doing all it could. Think of it like this: What will evaporate quicker, a gallon of water in a pail, or that same amount of water spread out across the shop floor?
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
ecosvo, all of my R&D tells me it's a capacity issue, not a flow issue. if it was a flow issue, i would think adding the extra radiator in the rear of the car would not be very effective. i can confirm that it is. the hot water bypass circulates water through the engine bypassing the radiator to keep water flowing when the thermostat is closed. since i removed the thermostat i had it plugged. now that i unplugged it and routed it through the auxiliary radiator a flow problem should have shown up. the auxiliary radiator is a double pass radiator. that should also exacerbate a flow problem, but it seems to be working. it will idle all day in the shop at 160 with the rear fan on only, never getting warm enough to trigger the mark viii fan. it comes on about 180 or so.

nater, i didn't start with a triple pass radiator. it overheated with a single pass too. i can assure you the water coming out of the triple pass radiator is no where near ambient. a triple pass radiator is used in racing applications when maximum heat dissipation is needed. if the radiator is hot AF as mine was, then the radiator is doing all it can do. plus i'm using a lincoln mark viii fan. well known to be one of the best by everyone in the hot rodding community. they've been swapped into everything imaginable. Electric Fan Conversion Using the Notorious Lincoln Mark VIII Fan - FordMuscle

take your ecoboost mustang out and run it up to full boost and hold it there for 5 seconds 50 times in 7 minutes and get back to me. i am certain you will be in limp mode long before 50 pulls. the cooling system is not designed to handle that kind of heat. racing exposes weak links.

i do appreciate everyone's input. it makes me think.....and then re-think...

edit: one thing i want to add....i'm using racing radiators. they have large passages. two 1 1/4" tube cores. modern OEM radiators use small tube, high efficiency cores. they are restrictive. since the ecoboost water pump is designed for a more restrictive radiator, i see no problem using multi pass racing radiators.
 

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ecosvo, all of my R&D tells me it's a capacity issue, not a flow issue. if it was a flow issue, i would think adding the extra radiator in the rear of the car would not be very effective. i can confirm that it is. the hot water bypass circulates water through the engine bypassing the radiator to keep water flowing when the thermostat is closed. since i removed the thermostat i had it plugged. now that i unplugged it and routed it through the auxiliary radiator a flow problem should have shown up. the auxiliary radiator is a double pass radiator. that should also exacerbate a flow problem, but it seems to be working. it will idle all day in the shop at 160 with the rear fan on only, never getting warm enough to trigger the mark viii fan. it comes on about 180 or so.

nater, i didn't start with a triple pass radiator. it overheated with a single pass too. i can assure you the water coming out of the triple pass radiator is no where near ambient. a triple pass radiator is used in racing applications when maximum heat dissipation is needed. if the radiator is hot AF as mine was, then the radiator is doing all it can do. plus i'm using a lincoln mark viii fan. well known to be one of the best by everyone in the hot rodding community. they've been swapped into everything imaginable. Electric Fan Conversion Using the Notorious Lincoln Mark VIII Fan - FordMuscle

take your ecoboost mustang out and run it up to full boost and hold it there for 5 seconds 50 times in 7 minutes and get back to me. i am certain you will be in limp mode long before 50 pulls. the cooling system is not designed to handle that kind of heat. racing exposes weak links.

i do appreciate everyone's input. it makes me think.....and then re-think...

edit: one thing i want to add....i'm using racing radiators. they have large passages. two 1 1/4" tube cores. modern OEM radiators use small tube, high efficiency cores. they are restrictive. since the ecoboost water pump is designed for a more restrictive radiator, i see no problem using multi pass racing radiators.
We appreciate you taking the time to document this stuff. It's good knowledge.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
bumping this to the top for another member to find easily...

after running the extra radiator a few races i can report that i'm fairly confident it has eliminated the high water temps. i'll update this again after we get a tacky race track and run the full 20 laps without any caution flags. with the single radiator, i got about 3-4 fast laps, then 1-2 average laps and by lap 6-7 it was 240 and definitely down on power. somewhere north of 240 it would go into limp mode. with the auxiliary radiator installed i went 15 green flag laps on a "kind of" tacky track and it never got over 215 so i'm going to call this a success until proven otherwise.
 

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So after reading your thread it seems like the radiator fixed the issue. I am curious as to whether or not the MoCool Radiator Additive could help since it only needs to decrease the temps by about 15 degrees to keep it out of the danger zone and trigger the ECU to reduce power. I have already purchased some and intend on using it on my next session. I will report back with my findings.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
it certainly won't hurt to have an additive. i use hy-per lube from o'reilly. straight water without anti-freeze will also cool better. distilled water is best.

edit: i don't know if you race with the windows down or not but another thing you can do when at the track with your street car is run the heater on full blast.
 
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