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Discussion Starter #1
So here I am.

Got a message from Modern Auto Performance that they will be increasing their prices slightly due to increased materials cost. My mind started buzzing, because I always had it in the back of my mind, that if were to EVER upgrade my MAP 'stock location' IC for ANYTHING, it would only be for their own 'racing' IC. I wasn't really planning on doing this, because essentially, I'm not so sure upgrading my IC will do me any 'real world' results because 1) I don't race, 2) I don't have an upgraded turbo. In fact, I've always ONLY ever thought about the upgrade to this IC as being requisite if I were to upgrade the turbo down the line.

Essentially, with no heat extractors on my hood, I still feel that this same piece of aluminum is going to bake some, when its sitting in the hot Miami traffic for upwards of 30minutes to an hour. So what do you guys think, my IC already does a really good job of dropping temps when I'm in motion. Do you think an upgrade would yield me real results?

Just picking brain. Not really sure what I want to do. Although I like the MAP piece a lot....I really wasn't ready to lay out some money right now (albeit I imagine I'll recoup some when I resell my stock location IC). The ONE thing I don't like about the MAP piece is that it will probably require me to change out my cold side Injen pipe (which I really want to keep because it has a bung for future methanol injection) because the IC has a coldside outlet of 3 inches and the Injen pipe diameter is 2.5, so I would have to find not only a reducer, but one with a 60 degree elbow. Not easy to find, so I'd probably have to lose the bung capability if I were to go this route.

Do you guys think one would see "real-world-daily-driver" results from upgrading my "upgraded" IC to one with a larger core? Or should I wait to do this, down the line, when and if I upgrade my turbo?
 

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Bigger is always better when turbo charging, must cool that air charge as much as possible. The thick stock location aftermarket IC’s just do not have sufficient frontal area are are still subject to heat soak.....not nearly as bad as the OEM IC though.
The tiny turbo on the EcoBoost really heats the air, especially at higher boost pressures, it needs all the help it can get, and with tune that ups the boost, the poor little turbo is really pushed out of its efficiency plot on the map resulting in even higher air charge temps. A cooler air charge = denser air charge = more power production.
 

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Discussion Starter #3

Bigger is always better when turbo charging, must cool that air charge as much as possible. The thick stock location aftermarket IC’s just do not have sufficient frontal area are are still subject to heat soak.....not nearly as bad as the OEM IC though.
The tiny turbo on the EcoBoost really heats the air, especially at higher boost pressures, it needs all the help it can get, and with tune that ups the boost, the poor little turbo is really pushed out of its efficiency plot on the map resulting in even higher air charge temps. A cooler air charge = denser air charge = more power production.
Question: MAP cites a "1000CFM @ 1psi pressure drop". I have an idea that it means it will push a "higher volume of air", but at a 1psi "less max pressure", but could you elaborate a bit, on what they mean?
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There's just something to knowing exactly what it is you want, and then knowing that this is the lowest price you will ever get it for. I've always been a bit trigger happy in that regard, thinking I'm walking away with a deal, but I'm really walking away with is another month of being enthusiastic about cheffing every meal myself, and quickly changing the subject when the wife asks about maybe going out to eat! ? ?
 

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Size matters here my friend, go big. (y)
 
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Question: MAP cites a "1000CFM @ 1psi pressure drop". I have an idea that it means it will push a "higher volume of air", but at a 1psi "less max pressure", but could you elaborate a bit, on what they mean?
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There's just something to knowing exactly what it is you want, and then knowing that this is the lowest price you will ever get it for. I've always been a bit trigger happy in that regard, thinking I'm walking away with a deal, but I'm really walking away with is another month of being enthusiastic about cheffing every meal myself, and quickly changing the subject when the wife asks about maybe going out to eat! ? ?
The pressure drop is like this, you have say 23lbs going into the IC but only 22 psi coming out......1 psi pressure drop @ 1000CFM is really damned good, theres a lot of math involved (which someone else can get into) but basically its a very well designed IC and your turbo doesn’t have to work as hard to maintain the desired boost. I’ve seen some cheap IC that have had as much as 5 psi pressure drop, so if you want 25 psi boost in the motor the poor turbo has to make 30 psi.
 

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Question: MAP cites a "1000CFM @ 1psi pressure drop". I have an idea that it means it will push a "higher volume of air", but at a 1psi "less max pressure", but could you elaborate a bit, on what they mean?
-----------------------------------------
There's just something to knowing exactly what it is you want, and then knowing that this is the lowest price you will ever get it for. I've always been a bit trigger happy in that regard, thinking I'm walking away with a deal, but I'm really walking away with is another month of being enthusiastic about cheffing every meal myself, and quickly changing the subject when the wife asks about maybe going out to eat! ? ?
When you install a larger IC over stock, it has a larger "internal" volume that the charged air needs to fill.
What this means is that you have now increased the total internal volume of the air tract from the outlet mouth of the turbo all the way to the throttle body.
Obviously, to fill the larger intercooler and air tract to the same boost PSI level, it has to pump more air, which takes slightly longer than filling the stock IC and stock existing tract.
This can cause "turbo lag".

Your ECU / tune determines the highest boost pressure the turbo will put out or reach.
Therefore if your turbo is tuned to a maximum of say 25 PSI output, and you lose 1 PSI with the larger IC, then you only get 24 PSI instead of 25PSI in the same timeframe.
Your turbo won't boost to 30 PSI (or above its tuned limit) to make up the short fall.

To reverse the "turbo lag", you would have to install a larger turbo.

As an analogy to help understand this...

Assume you have a small balloon, and you fill it with a given volume of air... Let's say 2 litres.
The 2 litres exerts a given force or pressure in that balloon... Let's say for the example, it is 25 PSI.

Then you put the same 2 litres of air in a larger balloon... The pressure in the larger balloon is now less, as it would need a greater volume of air to make the same 25 PSI.

No different to putting more air in your tires... Which of course increases the PSI, since the internal volume of the tire has not changed.

Is a bigger IC always better?

Not really... Lets take this example of a bigger IC to the ridiculous to illustrate this point.

Let's say you fitted a massive IC on the front of your car (outside the front grille), and it was the whole width of the front of the car and 4 foot high.

You now have a massive internal air tract volume over the stock system.

You would get massive turbo lag, and it would take much longer for the air tract and IC to fill with charged air to the given required PSI level... This would hinder and hurt performance.

Remember, a bigger IC in itself does not give you "more power"... It just gives you more "consistent" performance between runs when you get on the boost, as less heat soak will take place.

No matter what IC you have and how large it is, the charged air can never be cooled to a temperature less than the ambient air temperature passing through the IC.... That's Physics 101.

So sitting in the hot Miami traffic for upwards of 30minutes to an hour, and say 100 degrees.... 100 degrees will be the minimum temperature the charged air will ever be cooled to.

Now if one where to move to a water cooled IC or refrigerated condenser IC, then you could get lower than ambient temperature cooled air, but that's another story. :)

The problem with the large "racing" style IC's that extend from the stock location to well above the bumper, is that much of it's efficiency is lost due to the fins being blocked by the bumper, not allowing air to pass through.
 

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Pressure loss, or pressure drop, refers to the change in pressure when comparing the air entering the intercooler with the exiting air. This change is mostly affected by the internal flow area of the intercooler. Flow loss, however, is measured not just with pressure loss but with how much restriction to airflow exists. Maximum performance can be obtained if the pressure loss is kept below 1.0 to 1.5 psi. Anything in excess of these numbers, especially higher than 3.8 psi, and the intercooler is not properly fitted for the application which results in hindered performance and dramatically decreased functionality of the intercooler system itself.
turbobygarrett
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks @Kent All real good insightful stuff. The salesperson has kicked me an invoice that's good until tomorrow. Its a pretty good deal because it includes my veterans discount and a few other perks I've accumulated with them.

MAP makes great stuff. Since the IC was the first mod I did to the car, I was super anal about what I was putting in. I wasn't just going to put in any piece of aluminum. lol. I did mad research and concluded I was going to spend some cheese and go with either MAP, Cobb, Injen, or the Garrett. Honestly, I enjoyed the real results that MAP posted of their R&D. Not only that, but the polished piece of aluminum looks super nice.

I think I'm leaning towards getting it. But really, the last thing I'm fretting is the loss of the bung on my coldside pipe, because I will most definitely have to use the pipe they supply. If I did want to to meth injection in the future (which I feel that I do), I'd probably need to fit a throttle body spacer with a bung instead.But with a hard pipe, that may be impossible to do. Thoughts on that?
 

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The loss of a bung for W/I is a minor issue, several manufactures make a fitting just for fitting W/I to a pipe without a bung. I’ve used them several times with builds pushing in excess of 40 psi boost with no issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thank you. I was only considering it, but you guys have talked me into it. It's a done deal. Just put the order in. I figured its a great price, I decided against 2 bills for new brake lines, so why not put it towards this? Factor in the resell of my current IC, and this won't be coming out too expensive. Only problem is its currently out of stock, so salesdude gave me an 8 week lead time anyway. So I won't be seeing it for a while, but super excited to finally get the "Full Racing Performance", in what is the single most important bolt ons for our cars. I'll keep you guys posted.
 

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So here I am.

Got a message from Modern Auto Performance that they will be increasing their prices slightly due to increased materials cost. My mind started buzzing, because I always had it in the back of my mind, that if were to EVER upgrade my MAP 'stock location' IC for ANYTHING, it would only be for their own 'racing' IC. I wasn't really planning on doing this, because essentially, I'm not so sure upgrading my IC will do me any 'real world' results because 1) I don't race, 2) I don't have an upgraded turbo. In fact, I've always ONLY ever thought about the upgrade to this IC as being requisite if I were to upgrade the turbo down the line.

Essentially, with no heat extractors on my hood, I still feel that this same piece of aluminum is going to bake some, when its sitting in the hot Miami traffic for upwards of 30minutes to an hour. So what do you guys think, my IC already does a really good job of dropping temps when I'm in motion. Do you think an upgrade would yield me real results?

Just picking brain. Not really sure what I want to do. Although I like the MAP piece a lot....I really wasn't ready to lay out some money right now (albeit I imagine I'll recoup some when I resell my stock location IC). The ONE thing I don't like about the MAP piece is that it will probably require me to change out my cold side Injen pipe (which I really want to keep because it has a bung for future methanol injection) because the IC has a coldside outlet of 3 inches and the Injen pipe diameter is 2.5, so I would have to find not only a reducer, but one with a 60 degree elbow. Not easy to find, so I'd probably have to lose the bung capability if I were to go this route.

Do you guys think one would see "real-world-daily-driver" results from upgrading my "upgraded" IC to one with a larger core? Or should I wait to do this, down the line, when and if I upgrade my turbo?
I bought the MAP intercooler for 2 reasons.. 1 is it fit with no modifications (non race cooler)and to drop the temps and so far its done both i'm in Orlando so I kinda in the same boat...Miami is definitely hotter but Orlando is right up there... invention time someone needs to invent a small cooling fan that can mount to the IC and run while sitting in traffic and keep air flowing over the IC while sitting for those 5 minutes light changes.... vp
 

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Discussion Starter #12
invention time someone needs to invent a small cooling fan that can mount to the IC and run while sitting in traffic and keep air flowing over the IC while sitting for those 5 minutes light changes
That's what I'm talking about EXACTLY. If you live in a hot, humid area, that is also urban....your intake & charge temps will rise no matter what, when youre traffic pattern is basically drive a half mile to a mile at 35mph, and then wait at a light for five minuts. Rinse and repeat over and over. Yes, when the car is in motion....the charge temps will vigorously drop (something that DOES NOT happen with the stock IC). But if my charge temps have creepd up to 110 degrees while I was sitting at a light. A light throttle cruise at 35mph for a half mile isn't going to alleviate much.

FWIW, I am DEFINITELY looking at water/meth injection to help this problem (rather than a fan). As I read more and more about it, I think these systems, and the way they are able to drop charge temps, are the way of the future.

---------------------------------------------------

On another note, I want to thank everyone on this thread who gave me the confidence and recommendation to upgrade the IC. It turns out that MAPerformance is no longer going to produce their "racing" IC, and I am basically waiting on the last production batch. They don't even list it on their website anymore.

So I'm super happy I got the product I wanted. Thanks my dudes @Kent @TurboTigger604 !
 

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That's what I'm talking about EXACTLY. If you live in a hot, humid area, that is also urban....your intake & charge temps will rise no matter what, when youre traffic pattern is basically drive a half mile to a mile at 35mph, and then wait at a light for five minuts. Rinse and repeat over and over. Yes, when the car is in motion....the charge temps will vigorously drop (something that DOES NOT happen with the stock IC). But if my charge temps have creepd up to 110 degrees while I was sitting at a light. A light throttle cruise at 35mph for a half mile isn't going to alleviate much.

FWIW, I am DEFINITELY looking at water/meth injection to help this problem (rather than a fan). As I read more and more about it, I think these systems, and the way they are able to drop charge temps, are the way of the future.

---------------------------------------------------

On another note, I want to thank everyone on this thread who gave me the confidence and recommendation to upgrade the IC. It turns out that MAPerformance is no longer going to produce their "racing" IC, and I am basically waiting on the last production batch. They don't even list it on their website anymore.

So I'm super happy I got the product I wanted. Thanks my dudes!
I drive a hour to go 13 miles ?in Orlando tired of the I 4 Mess
 

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I drive a hour to go 13 miles ?in Orlando tired of the I 4 Mess
Yeah, I hear ya there. I cringe every time I have to travel that way because of the traffic and my car navigation is hopelessly f**d up with all the ongoing road and exit changes.
 

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Yeah, I hear ya there. I cringe every time I have to travel that way because of the traffic and my car navigation is hopelessly f**d up with all the ongoing road and exit changes.
Lo! Sounds like my experience every time I have to go through D.C.
 

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hey y'all i'm throwing this at you... do you think wrapping pipes with exhaust wrap ie: charge pipes etc will help in the temp … knowing what they do for the turbo and down pipe keeping heat in and out of the engine bay as much as possible,what about keeping heat out ? just throwing it out there ….vp
 

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hey y'all i'm throwing this at you... do you think wrapping pipes with exhaust wrap ie: charge pipes etc will help in the temp … knowing what they do for the turbo and down pipe keeping heat in and out of the engine bay as much as possible,what about keeping heat out ? just throwing it out there ….vp
People do wrap their intake pipes, I’m not convinced that it will do any good. But it’s your car and if you feel the need, go for it.
I’ve ran turbo cars for 35+ years and have never wrapped the charge pipes.....down pipe, yes and turbo blanket, yes, those really help.
 

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I doubt that wrapping the hot side charge pipe will accomplish much, but maybe the cold side charge pipe might benefit from an insulating wrap. It really would depend on how much higher the engine bay temp is compared to the air in the charge pipe. The temp of the pipe itself is going to be somewhere between the 2 temps. Wrapping exhaust on the other has 3 main benefits. Keeping the heat out of the engine bay, increased flow efficiency, and scavenging effect. If you keep the heat out of the engine bay, then your charge pipe will be cooler and won't impart some of its heat to your charge air. The flow efficiency happens due to hotter exhaust gases having a lower density thus increasing flow. And the scavenging happens because the decreased density and increased flow means less cylinder pumping losses which results in better evacuation of the cylinder and better AFR (more power). There are other benefits, like less heat means your other engine bay components (rubber, plastic, etc..) that degrade faster when heated or exposed to frequent extreme thermal cycles will last longer.

I think I might have an extra cold side charge pipe somewhere that I could install and get a data log, then take it off and spray on some insulation and data log again to see if it made a difference. Who knows, here in Florida a few degrees can make a difference, so it might be worth investigating. However, I firmly believe the exhaust wrap is a good bang for the buck. And probably a turbo blanket also. The stock heat shield is really only a nod to controlling heat.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I bought some "PTP lava wrap", the same stuff they made my turbo blanket out of, for the downpipe too. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Do you guys think that the bolts that hold the downpipe on should be part of the wrap, or should I go under them??

35822
 

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I bought some "PTP lava wrap", the same stuff they made my turbo blanket out of, for the downpipe too. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Do you guys think that the bolts that hold the downpipe on should be part of the wrap, or should I go under them??

View attachment 35822
I would cover downpipe including flange since it can radiate heat.
 
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