Ford Mustang Ecoboost Forum banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Let me just say...I really like the concept of the Velossa Tech adapter for the Ecoboost Mustang. I like it even more if its being offered at 15% discount. In an intake system such as ours, that is dependent on every type of aerodynamic vaccuum available, to keep pressure as tight as possible, this adapter makes a nice smooth "snort" on the front grill of the vehicle, where there would otherwise be some jagged, turbulent intake edges.

But I have some concerns where FP tuned vehicles are involved, especially in those that brought in the GT350 bucket. Those are:

1) The bucket itself isn't the tightest of seals. Lets start with the rim....most of it seals tight to the hood...but I had to apply a piece of duct tape to one side to it, on the left (looking in from the front of the hood), in order to keep it in place so that it properly 'rolls back' instead of being awkwardly pushed forward (I can provide a pic, but u may know what I'm talking about). Not only that, but there is an awkward 'cut out' in the bucket near the side of the hood, where its just basically breathing in engine heat. In the FP install manual, it actually has a pic of some piece of foam that you would put in...but that didn't come with my kit....did it come with yours?
Capture.JPG

Anyway, I actually fabbed a piece of foam by taking a trip to Michaels...and it looks similar to above, but its not like a perfect seal or nothing. Lastly, the FP intake install actually has you make a couple of snips to the rubber gasketing on the bucket, in order to fit it into the ecoboost intake fitting. In essence, I haven't checked by removing my front bumper completely, but my thoughts are that the seal between my GT350 bucket and the Ecoboost fitting on the front grill is obviously not a 'perfect seal' either.

So now I'm looking at this piece of plastic, for $100, that's suposed to make the aerodynamics of the intake better. Its just that I'm not sure how much it can possibly make it better...if its all jacked up behind it.

What do you guys think about the Velossa Tech for FP CAI intakes??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,863 Posts
I like the idea behind the Velossa Ram, but I guess Ford had a reason why they did not route the airbox inlet all the way to the grille in such a direct manner with least resistance.
I think car manufacturers have to make cars to be practical for all road, climatic and environmental conditions as well as owners from every demographic.

While the Velossa Ram duct makes sense for ultimate performance and the track, where every little bit counts, it might not be suitable for say someone driving on Autumn roads with plenty of leaves blowing about the road.
Leaves and debris would soon fill the airbox or block the intake at the grille.

In some parts of Australia for example, I guess like in the US, we can get locust plagues in rural areas, and that would not be good for a ram duct.

In the stock Ecoboost set up, this can't happen, as the airbox snout sits behind a heavy gauze shield just behind the front grille, and even if that was to get blocked by dirt, etc, the air can still get in around the sides.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
In the stock Ecoboost set up, this can't happen, as the airbox snout sits behind a heavy gauze shield just behind the front grille, and even if that was to get blocked by dirt, etc, the air can still get in around the sides.
I had a 15 and now have a 17. There was no gauze between the grill and the hole in the core support the air box connects to. There was a piece of rubber that separated the radiator area from the air box inlet.

On my 17 I replaced the stock grill with a wire mesh grill that opens up the entire area in front of the air inlet. I also live in the woods so there are lots of leaves and pine needles. I occasionally get a pine needle in the air box (FP CAI BTW) but have never had a leaf. Not sure how much dust and dirt gets into the box but that huge cone filter has a lot more surface area to trap dirt.



Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I'm not too overly concerned about debris & leaves. I do, however, like the concept of trying to allow this car to breathe a little better....I'm just not sure how well this $100 plastic is going to work. I know they have some R&D on their website...but that's with the tightly sealed stock intake.
Here is fitment between the GT350 bucket and the intake fitting on the Ecoboost. Note the circled mismatch where you have to cut the rubber gasketing in order to fit it over the fitting.
Image-1.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
I occasionally get a pine needle in the air box (FP CAI BTW) but have never had a leaf
Did youseal it up also with a piece of foam, where the airbox meets the inner fender?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
Did you also seal it up also with a piece of foam, where the airbox meets the sidewall of the car?
Not sure what you are referring to as the "sidewall of the car".

The FP GT350 air box that came with my tune has a rubber seal around the top that seals to the bottom of the hood. It also came with a flat piece of foam that seals the inner fender.

That being said the air inlet temps are no different than the stock air box. They climb as you sit in traffic and drop right back to a few degrees above ambient as soon as you are moving just like the stock box.

I had a JLT CAI on my 15 and it didn't seal to the hood and it acted just the same as my FP and stock airbox. I believe the air being forced into the airbox from the snout attached to the core support prevents any hot under hood air from being sucked in when you are moving.

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
It also came with a flat piece of foam that seals the inner fender.
This is what I was talking about. Either mine didn't come with this, the installer wasn't aware, or he jut decided not to put it in. I had to fabricate my own. Here is mine, before I smoothed it down the edges with a nail file.

IMG_0474.jpg



What about everything you just mentioned in terms of sealing, heat, air flow, and having the FP box (with a hobo foam setup).....in relation to the Velossa Tech???

Are you buying or selling the notion that the VElossa Tech aides/improves these factors, with the FP box setup?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
I gave a brief look over of the website, their product, and claims. In short summary, it looks like a piece that may provide visual appeal but is not likely to produce any meaningful improvement in power production.

The long:

Corky Bell covers the concept and engineering of Ram Air and scoop design very well in his two books, Supercharged! and Turbocharged! respectively, and they are fantastic references that debunked much of Ram-Air "tech" I read and bought into when I got my 1995 Mustang years ago. (And bought a very ineffective, but expensive RAM-Air from Cervinis for...)

From the teachings in Corky's book, I assess the following:

Firstly, the bellmouth shape they are using is probably well suited as a velocity stack, but is not a good design for a forward facing scoop, cooling duct systems in a radiator for example have a smaller opening at the lead which opens into the full frontage of the radiator. This promotes increased airflow by reducing pressure, and creating a very mild "vacuum" effect, remembering that high pressure is the opposite of high flow. The bellmouth design when faced into the wind will act like a funnel plunged into the stream of a river, water will rush in, create pressure, and a percentage will be reverted against the flow path and lost entirely, while the water that does jet through the funnel will be turbulent, high pressure, and of lower flow than that of an inverted funnel in the same conditions. It is counter-intuitive but is fluid dynamics in a nutshell. Sport Motorcycles have been incorporating the narrow into wide ram-air design since the mid 1990's and should be considered the most successful integration of Ram-Air engine feeding.

Secondly, Ram-Air effect is a very difficult thing to measure, for a variety of reasons, most of those are related to testing environments, but a perfectly designed and functioning system at 100 mph will generate about 0.1 psi of positive pressure at sealevel. In bench math this works out to about 2.04 HP on a ~300 HP engine. (An engine that makes 300 HP NA (1 atm) will in theory make double the HP at 14.7 psi (2 atm) so 0.1 psi is roughly equal to 0.68% gain, call it 2 HP). Again citing sport motorcycles, their NA engines have a specially designed Ram-Air, and sculpted airbox that is bolted together and sealed airtight, they claim a 5% hp gains total effect at speeds over 100 mph, even these values are considered to be a bit generous.

Back to feeding forced induction engines and away from the NA stuff, the main thing that harms a power adder for production is inlet restrictions, if a blower cannot feed or a turbo impeller has nothing compress it cannot work as well as we would like. A well designed intake, inlet, and manifold should demonstrate 0 in-Hg of vacuum at WOT, any vacuum reading in these systems at WOT represents a flow restriction and should be engineered out of the system for maximum performance. Copious volumes of airmass are what we want to make abundantly available, we should always respect that colder air is better than hotter air, but there is a delta between unlimited air at any temperature, vs cold air in limited supply. As we compress the air, we are heating it tremendously, non-intercooled discharge temps of 212-290*F are not uncommon, so having effective inter or after cooling is generally better than trading inlet airflow for 60-90*F ambient stuff to start with. (Ever seen the inlet placement of a 94/95 Mustang Procharger? Right above the exhaust manifold, their generous intercooler more than took care of the heat, making good, safe power.) Another small point, hotter air is increases in temperature less quickly than colder air in the same environment, rates of heating/cooling to equilibrium essentially, it likely plays a small role due to intake velocity but it is a discussion point of sorts.

I am not saying that cold air is not helpful, what I am saying is effective intercooling and a vehicle even slightly in motion will give a cool aircharge with an open element, non-ducted filter. In my own experiences with air/water systems I have had experiences when my IAT 2 were cooler than my IAT 1 at rest. While Air/air coolers are very responsive once the vehicle gets some airflow from a fan or travel speed. I have a non-intercooled blower system on my 95 below, and my strategy there is my inlet is in the fender, to make all attempts to reduce IAT 1, but I still see surface of the sun IAT 2 temps regardless, it really has no effect in reducing IAT 2. I keep the boost low, and yearn for the patience to scratch build an intercooler system for it.

Back to this duct provider, in their literature, "Eddie Currents" aren't something I am familiar with, however "Eddy Currents" are a real thing. I would like to see exactly how it is that they assessed that the well designed radiator system (as above) allows any reversion at either speed or rest with a E-fan running. Airflow models are 3 dimensional and their simplified powerpoint diagram probably looks nothing like the Ford modeling and testing results from the production vehicle.

References from Corky Bell's books are available upon request, and I suggest picking up copies for yourself, they have been the bible of the forced induction builds I have been involved in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I gave a brief look over of the website, their product, and claims. In short summary, it looks like a piece that may provide visual appeal but is not likely to produce any meaningful improvement in power production.
Agreed.

You bring up alot of great points. I never thought about the narrow to wide concept, but it does make sense to me. I suppose the 'tech' basically lies in this highligted pic. They are just trying to 'smooth something out' that would otherwise be a little jagged. But I like the way you explained how its will be 'high pressure' air flow in this design, which does nothing to bring down IAT. Bottom line is that this is more cosmetic than anything else.

Capture.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,863 Posts
My thoughts on the claims made on the Velossa Ram by the manufacturer;

1. I would like to see independent (non-comissioned) dyno testing as to any power gains.
As I've mentioned before, increased power claims on aftermarket CAI's, air filters and other mods are always made by those with a vested interest in selling them, so of course, they will be positive, if not inflated. :)

2. I cannot see how the ram duct can produce "5-8hp of air" as claimed if, at no stage on a stock Ecoboost, the stock airbox and way Ford has terminated the snout is never starving for air.
Also, the air entering through the stock designed air snout or the ram duct won't be any cooler, as the ambient air entering both is the same.
The heat from the radiator is not going to warm the incoming air to the stock snout setup, as what they fail to conveniently 'leave out' of their above diagram is the airflow coming in through the front grille going through the radiator, so there is no convection currents moving forward in front of it mixing with the incoming snout air.
Even when sitting and idling on a hot summer day in traffic, the radiator fans will turn on, creating the airflow through the radiator in the same way as when the car is moving at speed.

I like how the state... "Pressure drop through this cavity is now minimized" :)
If you create a noticeable 'pressure drop' in an area, you have effectively created a 'vacuum' in that region.
A vacuum lacks air, so if there is no air or less air, then more air will come through the front grille to fill that void... Air or any gas will always flow from a high pressure area to a lower pressure area and equalize.

If the Velossa Ram makes any additional horsepower... It will not be at normal roads speeds you are likely to be using every day.
Maybe at 200 miles per hour, it might make a difference but the Ecoboost is not a finely tuned Formula 1 car where little things like the Velossa Ram would make a real difference. :)

Can you imagine if Ford put something like the Velossa Ram on the cars at the factory...
And someone washes their car and grille with a high pressure hose, forcing water through the ram duct straight into the airbox, possibly saturating the air filter or filling up the bottom of the airbox. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,348 Posts
Ill chime in-

1) I think they are cool looking. If I could get the pair color matched in guard I would probably do it.

2) Any significant performance gain will be through tuning. When you effectively create a vacuum in the intake you create a scenario where there is more usable oxygen. Which allows you to be leaner on fuel and increase timing. Im not saying these do this, but they definately could.

3) Agreed, I would not use them on a daily driver with an open grill. Probably wouldnt hurt it, but i would be concerned.

4) I have come to learn most of what was quoted in Mr. Bells book, i have not read them. I will starting now!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The bellmouth design when faced into the wind will act like a funnel plunged into the stream of a river, water will rush in, create pressure, and a percentage will be reverted against the flow path and lost entirely, while the water that does jet through the funnel will be turbulent, high pressure, and of lower flow than that of an inverted funnel in the same conditions. It is counter-intuitive but is fluid dynamics in a nutshell
IMG_0522.jpg


That is a pic of the stock GT grill I plan to put in. In order to put the Velossa Tech behind there, and capitalize on the visual aspect, I was planning on sanding out those honeycombs. But if what you say holds true then does it makes better sense to leave the small amount of honeycombs open as-is, with the vast chasm behind it? To create a more ideal pressure situation all the way from honeycomb opening to filter?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
97 Posts
That is a good question, and based on the tech from Bell's books suggests that leaving as-is might be the best for flow. We know that Ford has heavily tinkered with the grill designs on various Mustangs since the S197 and I would honestly hope that their choice to only knock out so few had flow dynamics in mind. It is possible it was done so for other reasons like NVH, but it is hard for me to know for certain. I would be not doing any favors making a judgment call on that since I don't have the tech or testing to backup my wild guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,533 Posts
The design of the grill is for aero dynamics and inproved fuel economy. By restricting air flow into the cavity you get a high pressure area that cause air to flow over the car. Same reason as why they put shutters behind the grill in front of the radiator.

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Discussions like these are one of the best reasons for joining this forum. A lot of great information here and references! I never bought Corky Bell's book on forced induction ( ordering tomorrow! ) But I purchased a air to water inter-cooled turbo kit from him back in the 80's for the '86 RX-7 I had at the time and talked to him extensively when installing and tuning it. Excellent guy...extremely knowledgeable, helpful, friendly and man, what a superbly engineered kit that was from the design/fit/finish of the air to water IC to the turbo. The car ran 13.3's @ 107, which in 1986 was faster than basically anything stock on the road at the time. Made a few bucks with that car and unsuspecting competition LOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Y’all R late lol

I got gains 1.2 hp at 20mph 4.5 hp at 40 mph and it looks cool …..buy it idiots! Joking. Just buy the GT and spend $$ on making it YOURS.
Yeah, your guys thread from a year or so ago is the motivation behind the GT grill for sure. I think you GOTTA be into the looks if you're gonna spend money on this. The gains you are talking about are comparatively minuscule for precise measurement, no? If I do get it, I think I would hollow out all the honeycombs, but stop short of cutting out the "entire fang triangle" at the end of the grill.

This is what I have for sanding. Will this work? You guys started with 80 grit and went to 120? I want to be sure before I ruin the back of the grill. Thanks!!
Image-1 (1).jpg



The Velossa tech waerehouse/showroom is actually in Hollywood, FL which is not too far from me (45 min?). I was planning on going down there today, and had arranged it with him, but he shot me an email telling me he wasn't feeling well and that we could try for next week. I'll definitely have some pointed questions for him when I go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,388 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I think here's a good example of how it truly might aide in preventing that 'radiator backwash' when sitting in traffic. Here in Miami, in the summer, this is when I see IAT climb up to 110, even 120....not when I'm in motion. Its this compartment that I am truly trying to understand as I have yet to remove my front bumper (I may be doing this on Sunday). From afar, it looks jagged and yes, it seems heat can truly seep in also from this 'radiator nose area', and at least this puts a piece of plastic in between the intake and this area.
6447989D-74F3-4D0D-AEA2-595274BB8BEA.jpg
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top